Kaile Hunt 0:10
You are at your two week checkup after having your baby, and you are being asked, have you bonded with your baby? For some women, it's an easy yes, and for others, the answer might be more difficult to articulate. Today, we are diving deep in ways that you can bond with your baby and what to do if you think you have not bonded with them yet. Thanks for joining us. This is newbies!

Kaile Hunt 0:47
Welcome to newbies. My name is Kaile Hunt, and I'll be your host today. If you haven't already, be sure to visit our website, at New mommy media.com and subscribe to our weekly newsletter, which keeps you updated on all the episodes we release each week. Another great way to stay updated is to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app. And if you're looking for a way to get even more involved with our show, then check out our online community. It's called Mighty moms. That's where we chat more about the topics discussed here on our show, and it's also an easy way to learn about our recordings. So you can join us live. Our expert today is Dr Megan Carlos, who is an associate professor with the California School of Professional Psychology of Alliant, International University. Her research interests include attachment theories, children and families, women's mental health and disability issues at Alliant, she teaches courses in human development, psychometric, statistics and research design, observation and interviewing and sociocultural issues. Dr Megan Carlos Megan, thanks so much for joining us here. Please tell us more about your family.

Megan Carlos 2:04
Thanks. Kaile, I'm so excited to be here. Well, I have an academic background in psychology. I think what might be more key to this conversation is that I'm a mom myself. I have two kids, a 12 year old boy and an eight year old girl. And despite my background in attachment theory, I've had to figure out what what all that academic information means for how I actually bond and connect with my own kids. I love that,

Kaile Hunt 2:38
and I love that you have such a good background, and then you obviously are a professor and you teach, and so you can incorporate, you know, your learnings with your kids and also helping other new moms. So thanks for being here, of course. Yay. I will also be chiming in on my experience bonding with my daughter and the difficult transition of taking care of a newborn and yourself at the same time. But first, let's take a quick break.

Today. We're discussing tips to bond with your baby and what to do if you feel like you have not formed a secure attachment. So Megan, first, let's just get down to the bare bones. You know, what does bonding with your baby mean, and what does it look like, maybe for first time moms compared to second or third time moms,

Megan Carlos 3:23
that's a great question. You know, the first thing I want us to say, the first thing I want to say is that there is no one way to bond with your baby. The process is going to look different and feel different for different moms, bonding is about feeling emotionally connected to your little one, and moms need to figure out what factors will help facilitate that process for themselves.

Kaile Hunt 3:52
And so I love that you said it looks different for every mom. So I guess my follow up is, how will a mom know that she has bonded with a baby. And I'm I'm even pulling from my own experience. I vividly remember, for me, it was the six week checkup. At the six week checkup, my OB checkup, my OB was like, so have you bonded with your baby? And that question really took me back, so I just didn't know how to answer. Like, obviously, I love my daughter, and I think we're doing everything we can, but I just I didn't know what it meant exactly to bond with my baby. Can you elaborate a little bit?

Megan Carlos 4:29
Sure? You know, the way I answer this question is that it's sort of an intuitive sense. Do you feel connected? Do you feel emotionally close to your child, or do you feel like there is a sort of hurdle in getting that emotional closeness with your baby? And I would say moms really need to listen to their intuition. Question about their connection with their baby. You know, being a new mom, especially first time mom, there might be other maternal figures in your life, or other supports, like your own mother or your mother in law, who might come in and sort of make comments about your mothering or your connection with your baby. And what I would tell women is, does that like resonate with you? And if that doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. Listen to your own intuition. It won't guide you astray.

Kaile Hunt 5:40
That is great advice, and I really appreciate you bringing in exactly with the mother in law, what she might have done might be a little bit different than what you want to do, or or even your own mother. For example, I chose to breastfeed my daughter, and my mother didn't, you know, and so she was no help, which is okay for when it came to my breastfeeding questions and how I was bonding with my daughter in that aspect. But then, you know, she was helpful when it came to swaddling a baby and burping a baby, you know. So I love that. You know, trusting your gut and your intuition is definitely key when it comes to bonding with your own baby. So what happens if a mom doesn't bond with their baby right away? Let's say, Let's I'll give you a scenario. You know, you hear of a mother who you know is at her four week checkup with her baby, and she's being asked this question. She says, I don't know. I don't think I am. You know. I guess the follow up question is, what? What happens when that mom feels like she hasn't bonded? So the

Megan Carlos 6:38
first thing I want to say is, that's okay. I think there's a lot in the media that where we want to put our red flags out, like, where we want to put sort of the red flag up, like, Oh no, there's something wrong with me that I haven't bonded with my baby and I'm not doing this motherhood thing correctly. And I want to remind moms that there's lots of factors that may influence the initial bond you have with your little one, including how you're doing physically after birth, how difficult the birth has been, as well as how your baby is doing physically after birth. We know that sometimes babies need to go to the NICU following their birth, and that happened with my daughter, actually. And so when sort of things don't go exactly as we planned or as we hoped in our birth, we need to think about how we can foster bonding with our baby in the case of separation or medical challenges. And one thing to keep in mind is that having time with your baby, holding your baby, feeding your baby, cuddling with your baby, looking into their eyes, is going to facilitate bonding, whether it happens in the few moments after the baby is born, or whether it happens a day, two days, three days later in The NICU, that is

Kaile Hunt 8:20
so important. And I think you you literally hit the nail on the head on social media, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, there is a huge movement of skin to skin right after birth. And for so many women, one of my close friends included, that's just not a reality, especially if they have a hard labor and delivery. Or, you know, in your case of baby needs to be taken to the NICU if they've had a C section, you know, and babies vitals need to be checked pretty immediately. And so I love that, you know, getting skin to skin is important, yes, but it doesn't have to be, you know, the second they, you know, come out. It could be, you know, a few seconds, minutes, and then some cases, it's even hours later. You spoke a little bit about your experience with your daughter in the NICU. Could you just elaborate a little bit more about how, you know, you bonded with your daughter, and the transition of, you know, having her go to the NICU, and then maybe having her be with you full time, and being, you know, graduated from the NICU, sure,

Megan Carlos 9:21
of course, and I actually think my experience with my daughter is a great example of how things don't go how we expect. So when I was pregnant with my daughter, we had a mismatch in blood antigen type, and that was identified when I was pregnant, but all the testing showed that she was flying, she was healthy and that it wasn't going to be an issue. And then when she was born, she. Was really pale and very anemic, and needed to go to the NICU immediately to have a blood transfusion and treatment for that. And because I had an older preschool child at home, I actually had a cold when my daughter was born, so what that meant is I could not go see her in the NICU because I could endanger other babies in the NICU with my symptoms. So it was actually 48 hours before I could go up to the NICU to even see her, and so my academic mind sort of kicked in as my coping mechanism when I finally got to go up, I really had to think about, okay, I didn't get the birth I wanted. Sort of, what am I gonna do now? Like, how do I want to think about bonding with her and sort of being able to be with her, even though I missed this 48 hour window?

Kaile Hunt 11:19
Holy Moly, that is a great story. And my follow up question is, what was your mindset shift, you know, and I feel like your story is probably really common with a lot of moms. So what was your mindset shift and and for mothers you know, who maybe are listening and they resonate with you, you know, with your story, what was, what did it take for you to kind of, you know, get over that hurdle of not having the birth you wanted, but still focusing on bonding with your daughter?

Megan Carlos 11:47
I think part of it was, was validating my own emotional experience, and sort of allowing myself to cry and be upset and acknowledge that this didn't go how I wanted, and it's okay to be sad and disappointed about that, and then, sort of after those 48 hours, it was so exciting to be able to get the Clear, to be able to go up to the NICU, sort of on a regular basis, and see her, and I just spent a lot of time holding her. I got to breastfeed her for the first time when she was 48 hours old. And just, I spent a lot of time sitting in the NICU with her and just doing the skin to skin contact.

Kaile Hunt 12:50
That is amazing. I'm getting emotional listening to this story. I just, wow, I couldn't imagine, was this your first? Um, no, so this was your second?

Megan Carlos 12:59
Yeah, my younger daughter, my daughter feels younger, and I

Kaile Hunt 13:03
can imagine, I mean, I guess put yourself, what if this happened, you know, in your first pregnancy and delivery, I guess it's kind of good, I hate to say, but you, you are already a mom, you know, and so you know that you love your daughter and that, you know, the bond is there. But I guess, did that kind of help in a way that you were a second time mom going into this,

Megan Carlos 13:23
I really think it did, because I like for label. So I breastfed both my children and so for label. When I went into the NICU and was able to hold my daughter, I was, like confident in my ability to breastfeed her, you know, I, at that point in time, I didn't, then have to learn how to do the breastfeeding and work that out. I was kind of like, okay, we can, you know, hit the ground running with that piece of

Kaile Hunt 13:59
attending to her. That makes sense. That definitely makes sense. Well, perfect. Well, we have more questions for you coming up, but first we'll take a quick break.

Welcome back. We are continuing our conversation about bonding with your baby and secure attachment with Dr Megan. Carlos Megan, question right back over to you. I want to know the difference between, you know, and forming a secure attachment, and how that might be considered different with bonding with baby. Is it the same thing? Is it different? And how important is it having a secure attachment? Oh,

Megan Carlos 14:39
you're asking such a great question. So will bonding and attachment are similar? They are actually different concepts in developmental psychology, bonding refers to a mother's emotional connection, or a parent's emotional connection. With her child, whereas attachment refers to a child's emotional connection with their parent. So one thing we know about secure attachment is that it is associated with several positive developmental outcomes for babies, and those include better emotional regulation, better ability to positively connect with peers as they grow up. And secure attachment is also a protective factor from mental health difficulties. So secure attachment is a pattern of connection that, of course, we want to foster in our children. However, here's what I really want to emphasize, and I think this is super important, secure attachment doesn't develop overnight, and I'm the same. Thing is true for bonding. It's not like there's a narrow window, and if you miss it like you know you're in trouble, secure attachment develops over the first year of life. And one thing I like to say is, if you're a parent for for the mamas listening or the parents listening. Think about the 1000s of interactions you have with your baby over that first year of life, and really that is 1000s of opportunities to foster a positive attachment. What that also means is you don't have to get it right 100% of the time, because as moms, as parents, we are still human. We're tired, we're stressed, we're in a potentially hormonal flux as we are recovering from giving birth, and we can't be on 100% of the time, but if, if we're, you know, there fostering that security most of the time, that's what matters over the first year of life,

Kaile Hunt 17:24
I love that you said we don't have to get it right 100% of the time. And drawing on my experience of having a newborn, I remember I just changed her diaper, right? That she's like, two three weeks old, and I just changed the diaper, and she's still crying, you know, and maybe I changed it three minutes ago, and she's crying, and I'm like, Well, are you hungry? No, not hungry, you know, I'm bouncing. Are you sleepy? After 20 minutes of bouncing, she's still just irritable and fussy. No, she she just had another Pee, pee diaper, you know, Nate. And so I feel like it's just, you know, you want to do everything, right? But like you said, we are humans. We are hormonal, especially in the newborn phase, you know. And our hormones are drastically decreasing. And then for some women, we're still recovering after a C section, you know. And so that is so important to remember is, you know, you don't have to get it right 100% of the time. And I love that you spoke about, you know, snuggling with your baby, eye contact, and all of those very important things. So switching it, you know, how can fathers, husbands, partners, you know, who didn't birth the baby? How can they bond with their baby and have a secure attachment? And how does it look different than, you know, the birthing parent, the mom? So

Megan Carlos 18:39
I think how fathers or partners bond with their baby, I think there's a large variability in how bonding happens. You know, there's not one narrow way to bond. So dads, you know, may walk around holding the baby. Dads may also sting or playing music for the baby. Dads may, you know, take baby for a walk, and for moms or birthing parents, your partner may have a different way of bonding and connecting with baby, and that's okay, if it's not the same as you you know there are different patterns in how different people are going to connect with the newborn, definitely,

Kaile Hunt 19:34
and then the newborn phases and the days I feel like looking back now, It really is a blur. It just kind of goes by, and it's a lot of laying around, from what I remember, again, I'm just talking about just having one baby. I'm sure if you had a toddler in a newborn, it's a different story. But for me, it was just a lot of laying around. And I specifically remember because I breastfed my daughter as well. Yeah. That I was nursing her around the clock, which I wanted to do, you know, I was fighting to do, you know, that was a mental that was my mental road that I took. And I remember every time after I finished nursing her, I would hand her off to my husband, and he would burper. And so that was his kind of way to, you know, be included, try and form some sort of, like attachment, and, oh, now it's Dad's turn to burp you and rock you or bounce you if you are sleepy. And so that was just, you know, a quick tip for moms that that's how, you know, we incorporated my husband into the picture for bonding, and it did look different. And maybe, like I mentioned later, you know, we go on to have more kids, it's probably gonna look different with the toddler running around, but in the early days, it was a lot of laying around and, you know, sitting on the couch or in bed and passing, you know, my daughter back and forth, which is very fun. And I can see why so many women like the newborn phase, because it is really a slow time, or it can be a slow time to really just bond with baby, bond with family, and expand and so where should moms go? Let's say they're listening to this episode, or they have a friend who's reached out and they're like, Hey, I don't know if I'm bonding with my baby. What would be your advice? Where can you know women go if they are having trouble with their baby, that's

Megan Carlos 21:25
such a great question. And I think the first thing I want to say is, if a mom feels she is having trouble bonding to not get into a self critical or pessimistic mindset, to not go down the Oh no, this is terrible. What's wrong with me, you know? And to sort of take a deep breath and be like, Okay, I'm not the first mom who's been down this path. And there is, there are supports out there for me, one of the first things I want to ask a mom who might be struggling with bonding is I want to ask about sleep. And are you getting sufficient sleep? Because at some point if mamas are just not getting good sleep that is really going to affect their ability to function and bond with their baby. And I want to encourage mamas like we don't expect you to do everything for your newborn baby. It's okay to have your partner birth the baby, or change the baby, or take a feeding shift if you need to sleep, so just ignore acknowledge that often moms who are struggling are also really struggling with sleep, and we need to bring in support so that moms can sleep, sort of beyond that, I would encourage moms to reach out to their OBGYN or to a mental health professional, and therapy or other supports are available to assist with difficulty bonding with your baby. I also think being a part of a new moms group, or moms with newborns group can provide a lot of validation and allow connection with women who might be struggling with similar issues.

Kaile Hunt 23:47
Most definitely, you have just had so many important key points, not only about sleep. I mean, sleep is huge, and not every baby sleeps throughout the night. Not every baby sleeps at all at night, from my understanding of talking to so many moms. And then, you know, you throw in, maybe your baby is colicky or maybe they have reflux, you know. And so there's so many things that can contribute to breaking up a new mom's sleep. But also, you know, throwing in, you know, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, you know, which could be contributing to sleep difficulties. And then you talked about, you know, asking for help. That was a big one for me. And I'm a military wife, and so it was just me and my husband. We were an ocean away from our family. We were in Hawaii, and so it really was us. It wasn't like my family could just take a drive down the road. No, it was a five hour flight, you know. And so we really didn't have anyone, so we really had to rely on ourselves. And what saved us, talking about our experience, is I was part of a birth class, and it was a, I believe it was like a six week birth class, maybe seven weeks. All of our due dates were very close together within three weeks. And so when I was the last one to. Give birth. And so, you know, a lot of the other moms, we had this group chat, and they would talk about their birth experience, and then they talked about the two week checkup experience, and then everything in between. So questions about sleep, questions about breastfeeding, questions about formula feeding. You know, it was very inclusive. We on a different totally different topics. And I really loved having that group, because I remember I had breastfeeding struggles, which contributed to me not sleeping that much, and I just wanted to do everything. I didn't want to pump. No, I needed to, you know, actually breastfeed her. Well, you can still breastfeed a baby by pumping, you know, is from what I gathered later on, more knowledge, yes. And so I remember asking, like, you know, my baby doesn't want to take a bottle. You know, what am I doing wrong? And the help I received was so amazing from the other I think, three other mothers who chose to breastfeed their babies, they're like, nope, keep trying, you know, keep trying to latch. See a lactation consultant. So anyway, what you spoke about, getting with other newborn moms is really important. Because if you know a mother who's in the newborn phase asked me very specific questions, I can, of course, try to help, but for me, that was over a year ago, so I'm not in it. I'm not fresh in it. You know, I can give helpful advice, but I'm not. I have not in it day and day. So I think that is so so so important. Follow up question to all of that is, how common, and you kind of touched about it with speaking with a mental health professional, but how common is it to not form some sort of attachment? So I want to take the stigma out of, you know, you give birth to your baby and, oh, you fall in love and happy ever after. You know, because for so many women, there's a lot going on. So how common is it, you know, to not form a secure attachment, or to not feel like you're bonding with your baby.

Megan Carlos 26:52
So I would say, even if you're struggling with bonding, that doesn't automatically mean you are not fostering a secure attachment. Because, as I was talking about earlier, we don't need to be on sort of 100% of the time with our little ones to end up with that secure attachment that

Kaile Hunt 27:23
is beautifully said. And I love that, especially for moms in the newborn phase who are trying everything they could be like, mean, bouncing their child, trying to nurse their child, but no, their child had a pee pee diaper, you know? And so yes, you are doing everything, and you might not be bonding with your baby in this exact moment, but you are building the foundation to have a secure attachment. I absolutely love that. Well, we have more questions coming up, but first, let's take our last break. Welcome back. We are continuing our topic about secure attachment and bonding with your baby. Dr Carlos, after, or actually in the break, we were talking a little bit more about, you know, breaking down how common it is to not have some sort of attachment with your baby. And you mentioned having some numbers that you'd like to share. So I guess, how common is it to not form an attachment with your baby to kind of take the stigma out at for these new moms who might feel embarrassed, you know that they are struggling in this aspect. So actually,

Megan Carlos 28:26
it's it's very uncommon to not form an attachment. So when we look at this worldwide across cultures, 99% of babies form an attachment with a caregiver. In my mind, there sort of is no such thing or that there's to to to be a child who is unattached. Is very rare and comes from a really traumatic background. So I would say also, when you look at data within the US, 60 to 70% of US babies are securely attached. So again, even though you as a new mom might feel like, Oh, am I doing this right? Am I connecting what the data tells us is you are far more likely to be nourishing a secure attachment that you may realize in the moment.

Kaile Hunt 29:44
I love, that I think that definitely takes the stress one little thing out of you know, the parenting to do list, and so giving some easy tips right to new moms to build that secure attachment. And we talked a little bit about, you know, finding new new moms in the newborn phase. What are some tips or ideas to kind of, you know, form that secure attachment with your newborn well.

Megan Carlos 30:11
So again, a lot of this, there's sort of two components. One focuses on self care. So are you getting Are you taking care of yourself? Are you getting sufficient sleep, and are you nourishing yourself well? So that is sort of one component, and then a second component would be, what do you feel you need to do to be emotionally connected with your baby for you? Does that mean you want alone time to be with your baby, or does that mean you want your social support network around you? Do you want your mom or your mother in law or other female mentors or extended family around you? Have to figure out what is gonna make you feel the most at peace?

Kaile Hunt 31:18
Definitely, I feel like it's very similar to when people ask about birth plans, right? Like you go in with a plan, and for me, I wanted, it's really funny with my birth class, I realized I liked silence. I did not want words of affirmation. I did not want Cheers. I wanted silence just to breathe and focus. And that's kind of how I was postpartum. We didn't get the opportunity to have a lot of friends and family, over which, honestly, was a blessing. My mom flew out, I believe, a week after I gave birth, and then my mother in law flew out three weeks after, and they only stayed for a few days. And so for a lot of it, it was just me and my husband, and what made me happy was getting outside, you know, getting some sun on my skin, um, even if it was something as simple as, you know, waking up whenever we did wake up with a newborn, and just having my coffee or tea outside, you know, with my newborn and like a little bouncer like that, to me, was a great way to make me have a great mindset and be like, I can do this. We are going to have a great day today, baby. We're gonna bond and and do all the things we can, you know, to grow happy and healthy. And so I think, like you said, you know, taking care of mom is so important, and that looks different compared to everyone. Not one of my girlfriends. She had a whole lot of family members and visitors helping her with her baby, but it was her second child, and she needed the help with her toddler. You know, where me, I didn't really need that. And so it was all just different. And I think that is okay, especially in the early days. One of our last questions, really is, you know, for me, having alone time really worked for the first time around. How can it also work the opposite, you know? How can it What have you seen when women, first time moms, second time moms want that family support. Want the mother in law there, their sister there, their sister in law, whatever it may be, you know? How can that be beneficial and also, at the same time, still be building that, you know, secure attachment, totally.

Megan Carlos 33:25
I mean, if we think about this from more of an evolutionary perspective, you know, humans are very social. We're social creatures, and historically, we raised children more in community where we had extended family and community to help sort of whole to help a new mom negotiate these tasks. And now in this day and age, there's more to sort of stress that's falling on the couple to do all of the newborn care, sort of just as a couple. So keeping in mind that historically, us humans have utilized a lot of support in raising little ones. That being said, we need to balance that with are the visitors going to help mom relax, recuperate and bond with the baby, or are the visitors potentially going to get in the way of that process for mom. So for for mom, for the parents, it's about who do we choose to come into the the inner circle that's going to help promote the growing family system, rather than be a. Stressor on that family system

Kaile Hunt 35:03
that is so, so important. And I think for all new moms, that is something we are battling with almost every day, right? Like, is this really helping my mental health? You know? Is this really filling up my cup? And I think that's where the conversation starts about boundaries, that could be a whole different episode. Yeah. Dr, vegan Carlos, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a such a great episode full of information. Be sure to check out new mommy media.com where we have all our podcast episodes, plus videos and more.

Megan Carlos 35:40
Thank you so much. Kaylee, this has been so fun to talk with you on this topic.

Kaile Hunt 35:46
I love it. I definitely love it.

That wraps up our show for today. Thanks for listening. If you love newbies as much as we do, please consider checking out the amazing businesses that sponsor our show week after week. And we'd also love for you to tell another new mama about this resource, which is, of course, absolutely free. And if you want to check out some of the other podcasts we've produced, such as preggy pals, parent savers, the boob group and twin talks. Then visit our website at New mommy media.com, and don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more information, giveaways and more. Our handle is at New mommy media. Thanks for listening to newbies.

Disclaimer 36:37
This has been a new mommy media production. The information and material contained in this episode are presented for educational purposes only. Statements and opinions expressed in this episode are not necessarily those of new mommy media and should not be considered facts. While such information and materials are believed to be accurate, it is not intended to replace or substitute for professional medical advice or care and should not be used for diagnosing or treating healthcare problem or disease or prescribing any medication. If you have questions or concerns regarding your physical or mental health or the health of your baby, please seek assistance from a qualified healthcare provider you.