Emily Mason 0:00
Today we are discussing pregnancy after miscarriage. Miscarriage impacts about one in three pregnancies, and can be very emotional to experience and go through getting pregnant again. After having a miscarriage can be a nerve wracking experience, and today we are diving deep on ways to ease your mind and give tips on how to cope through the stress. Thanks for joining us. This is Preggie Pals,

Emily Mason 0:52
Welcome to Preggie pals. My name is Emily Mason, your host for today's episode. Before we dive in, make sure to check out our website, at New mommy media.com and subscribe to our weekly newsletter to stay updated on all our latest episodes. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button in your podcast app so you never miss an episode. If you're looking for even more ways to connect, Join our online community, mighty moms. It's a great place to continue the conversation from the show, share insights and even find out how to join us live for future recordings. Let's get started. Our expert today is Madeline Garner, who is a New York based writer. Her upcoming book, a picture book for adults, entitled Your baby will find you, is out May 6. She is the head of creative services at Sotheby's auction house, and she received her BA in Art History and Italian studies from Wheaton College in Massachusetts. She resides in Queens with her husband, baby and cat. Thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit more about your family where you're located, all the ins and outs?

Madeleine Garner 2:14
Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, Emily. It's really great to be here and to talk about this experience I had, which was totally life changing. And I think just anytime I can sort of make it less scary for people. I always try to do that. But yeah, so I'm in I'm in New York, and in Queens, I now have a one year old, or a 13 month old, and she is about to start walking any day now, fingers crossed. She loves to crawl, just too much. But, but, yeah, I mean, I think we are, you know, our whole lives now revolve around her. And I work full time in the city at seven bees, so I'm, you know, I'm full time there. I'm also writing these books on the side, which is my sort of true passion, to take these experiences that are like life changing and that they bring true grief into your life. For me, it was like the first time of experiencing sort of loss in this way. And there's kind of no loss, like it's it's a loss that happens within you, like inside your own body. It's like, very hard to conceptualize when it's happening and even afterwards. And writing the book that's coming out soon is it was the way that I was able to process the entire experience. So that's what your baby will find you.

Emily Mason 3:40
I'm really excited for this episode, I think bringing out some of these topics that are harder to discuss and harder to conceptualize for people, and a lot of us have experienced these things, and we maybe don't know how to put those those thoughts and feelings into words. So I think this is going to be a really great episode, and will also give people permission to have feelings that maybe they haven't given themselves permission to have previously.

Madeleine Garner 4:12
Absolutely, we have to be able to have all of the feelings. Yes, Agreed.

Emily Mason 4:16
Agreed. We We grant ourselves permission for some, but we need to grant ourselves permission for all well. We have a ton of great questions lined up, but first we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Stay tuned.

Welcome back today. We are diving into the tough topic of pregnancy after miscarriage, so feel free as I ask some of these questions, we can kind of chat back and forth. But one of the first ones is really about the types of losses, types of pregnancy losses. Can you kind of expand a little bit on the types of loss? Is that people may experience, sure,

Madeleine Garner 5:02
yes, there are definitely a lot of, I mean, the fact that pregnancy ever works is, like, just insane. So many tiny things need to go right in order for babies to exist, and they do so often. But then a lot of other times, some of these tiny things don't, don't go right. So for me, um, my experience was that I I got my IUD out. I had been married for a year. I was like, I'm super ready. This is our plan. We're doing everything like we want, like, this is what we're doing. And we got pregnant pretty quickly. And I was like, great. That's exactly what people told me would happen. I would get pregnant really fast, because I'm young and all these different things, and I felt pregnant. I was like, exhausted, I was hungry, and it was all the all those things. And then we go to our eight week appointment, and it's truly like the nightmare scenario where you're like, in that darkened room, and the ultrasound tech, who isn't allowed to tell you what they're seeing, but you can sort of sense that they're like, not seeing what they're supposed to see. And she's sort of going around trying to find and looking here and there, and like, asking questions about, you know, black first day of last period, and all these things that I'm like, this is not the way I think this is meant to go. And basically they showed us where, like the little sack was, or where the baby was meant to be. But essentially, like the baby had stopped growing and there wasn't a heartbeat, and we were sitting in this sort of silent room watching this huge screen of nothing, and it was, I mean, like, absolutely devastating. I can't even you just don't think it's going to be you. You simply don't think it's going to be you. And I'm not an expert on every single type of pregnancy loss, because I am grateful to have only experienced one kind. But this is the kind where it's it's just called an unviable pregnancy and and there's no rhyme or reason for why it happened. Like, you know, medically speaking, I didn't do anything. Like nothing happened. Like it just wasn't the cells that came together were not ever going to be a baby. But to me, for four weeks, they were, they were 100% a baby. Our whole lives were going to be different. We had we already mapped it out. We saw into the future. We knew which, you know, we knew the due date. We knew all these things we were imagining ourselves, you know, summer of the next year with our baby and and so when you find out that actually, that is not happening. You've lost, not like the little cells you've lost, like a whole life that you had envision, envisioned, you know, for yourself. And I was just, I mean, we left that room and I was in the elevator area, just like sliding down the wall like weeping. I mean, it was like, and you, and you walk through the room like this air, this part of this one hospital that we were in, and you hear, hearing, sort of all the amplified heartbeats of all the other babies and all the other ultrasounds happening around you. And like you're just your room was silent and it was just it was like everything before that, and then everything after that for me, right?

Emily Mason 8:27
And and so to add more with the different kinds we like, chemical pregnancies and the pregnancy that you had mentioned, the miscarriage during the first trimester, the cells, the DNA, the all of the things have to come together in this perfect formation, which you put it so eloquently, like how this even happens is beyond my compassion as well. And you have the second trimester miscarriage and then a stillbirth, which is losing a baby after about 20 weeks of gestation. And I think one in three women experience pregnancy loss. And you know, you're, you're talking about walking out of that room and hearing the amplified heartbeats and the babies and the and people are celebrating, and you're walking by all of these happy people and and I've, I've had the same walk where I walked out of the fertility clinic for the third time of you know this, this didn't work. And there's people that they're holding their ultrasound pictures and they're talking, they're hugging, and you're putting on this i because you're so happy for them, you're so happy for everybody else, but you're also heartbroken for yourself. And how do you how do you mask that and and that's something that I think, as a society, as women, we want to be happy and cheer everybody on, but we also maybe don't take so much time to navigate our emotions and and. And figure out how, how to go about going back into a society where people are going to be pregnant and I'm not anymore.

Madeleine Garner 10:09
Yes, I gave myself a lot of leeway to simply not be happy for other people. I was, like, if I don't want to be happy for other people, like, right now, I don't have to be and I don't have to say anything. I I'm gonna keep it to myself, but like, you have to take care of yourself in that moment, like, first and foremost, and you, I mean, I had never navigated pregnancy before. I had never navigated fertility things before. And so there was so much to sort of like, take in and process, and I had enough to deal with, me, like, and I actually, my best friend, actually did get pregnant, like, two or three weeks after this happened to me, and I did have to say, like, I love you, and I'm so happy for you, and I will celebrate with you at a later date. Because I, I can't, I physically can't do it right now, right? And, like, I think that should be okay too. Like, we should normalize, like you're not celebrating everyone at the exact time you know that they you know, tell you or whatever, because it's so hard when someone else has what you want and you're just seeing the road stretch before you like, now I have to figure out what's next. What how do I how do I help this little grouping of cells leave my body? How do I then physically heal? Then, how do I emotionally heal? When can I start trying to get pregnant again? When am I going to feel emotionally ready to get pregnant again? How am I going to, like, you know, deal with my partner's grief, like, how am I gonna handle what he's going through, because he lost a baby too, and then he's trying to help me and and then you have to try to come back together to make another baby. It's, it's so complex, and each step, I think, deserves its own time and its own space. And I think that was the first time I really learned that, and it really helped me. Then later, when I did, amazingly, get pregnant again with my daughter, and, like, I needed that lesson. And many of the lessons that I learned during my miscarriage, during the like, conception of my daughter, and then also, like, during my pregnancy with her. Like it was that that giving space to each step was, like, an invaluable lesson

Emily Mason 12:33
as you navigated through these things as a society, because I love the fact that you were like, I am happy for you, and we're going to celebrate this at a later date, but like, It's me right now. Like, I love that, and I've been put in that position a lot of times with my friends, and I don't know like, because I experienced infertility for eight years, and it was time and time and time and time again, and they were all getting pregnant, and I was like, just put on a happy face, like, and how, like, what, what made you or was there a resource or something that you were just like, This is what I'm going to do, or was this just something that you decided and came up with on your own, of like, I'm taking care of me first. I

Madeleine Garner 13:24
mean, I honestly was lucky that my best friend, whom I love very dearly, she lives on the opposite side of the country, so we weren't together all the time, like I didn't have to confront the situation constantly. So I was able to sort of hide away a little bit in my grief, which I needed. But honestly, no, like, I didn't find a lot of resources, which is exactly why, like, the story sort of poured out of me and became this book. Because there wasn't, I mean, I didn't have any kind of resource that would give me the gentle hug of knowing and of sort of quiet optimism that I that I was looking for, like I was looking for someone to tell me it's gonna be okay, whether you get pregnant again or not, like you're going to be okay, and the life that you have built as it is right now is already amazing. And like, don't sort of forget or give up on the life that you have in determination to make a new life that you want. It took me a while to get there. It took me a long time to get there, and a lot of iterations of the book too, because I of course, it started out as you end up pregnant again, but that's just not the case for everyone. And I didn't want the book to sort of be telling people sort of a dishonest story, and I wanted to help as many people as possible. Possible. But I think there should also be a book about, like, taking care of yourself and your own physical and emotional needs when you go through this type of loss, despite what might be happening around you. And I think putting on a mask is a really treacherous thing to have to do. It's it really hurts, like it can be, like, physically painful, I think, when I have, when I've had to do it, and my own life and and I, and I also know that my friends don't actually want that for me as much as they want me to be happy for them. They don't want me to be putting that mask on for their benefit. And I don't remember doing this specifically, but I can sort of imagine I maybe did this, which was like having that sort of honest conversation with my friend. And I think every most people, I think, have a more difficult fertility journey than you'd ever imagine like, I think, you know, you see so many beautiful families in the world, and you just have no idea what they went through to create that family. And as I've said, told this story sort of more and more. And more like, I think almost every single person I've talked to, it's either like they've experienced fertility stuff, or like a very close family member or friend has. And so it's just ubiquitous. And like this best friend I'm talking about like she it took her an entire calendar year to get pregnant. And they were like, about to do IUI, and she got pregnant naturally. So when I was when I was telling her that this had happened to me, of course, and telling her it happened like she had her own experience of loss, and not, or not of loss, but of like, of just difficulty and maybe, and it is loss. I mean, every time you get your period and you're devastated. It is like a type of loss and and so she really, she she understood, but she didn't like, I think, I think in all of our in all of the specificity of fertility stuff, I think it's so hard to like, truly understand, unless you've really gone through that exact thing. But there's so much empathy that we were able to swap back and forth because she had gone through her thing, I had gone through my thing, and then, you know, we get the best kind of ending to our story. Or, like, hope, you know, not ending. But, like, she had a beautiful daughter. I had a beautiful daughter six months later. Like, how lucky are we? I mean, we got the best possible outcome, but it but we went through our own harrowing, you know, tales in order to get there. Yeah,

Emily Mason 17:25
parallel, parallel journeys that eventually, you know, crossed. And I think that, again, that's something that we need to talk more about. Like the the entire journey to get pregnant is not a linear journey for every person. It's it's a very zigzagged and up and down roller coaster of emotions and and I think, much like your friend, as I walked through my journey, I didn't tell anybody when I was pregnant. I was like, if I tell somebody, I'll jinx it, like, because we had been doing this for eight years of on and off, and you're pregnant and you're not pregnant, and you're pregnant and you're not pregnant, um, and so I think it was definitely important to to help bring awareness. After I did announce it, then I started saying, like, well, I don't see anybody on social media talking about pregnancy or talking about infertility, and why are people talking about this? And so then I started to be like, oh, like, we should talk more about this. Like, yeah, I, I should, I should open up and have conversations. And now I'm in we adopted our oldest and had had our youngest, I choose three, and we're starting this fertility journey again. And I'm like, wow, I started it the last time after I was like, three months pregnant, telling people all of the things. And this time, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you from the very beginning, like, with me, and people are like, Oh my gosh. Like, I, you know, like, I'm experiencing these same things, and my doctor hasn't done anything about it. Maybe I can ask them for, you know, like to run this test, since you got that test right, like, I'm talking about all of those things. So when, when you, I guess, were going after your miscarriage, and even during your miscarriage, what did doctors like? That's been one of my, like, huge sticking points is getting somebody to listen to me. What was your experience like speaking with those doctors during and after your miscarriage?

Madeleine Garner 19:47
Yeah, I had sort of two parallel experiences, because I had people at a major hospital, and then I had midwives who I had, you know, hired and brought on when I was like, you know, four and a half five. Weeks pregnant. I just taken the test and just found out. So I had sort of like, you know, these amazing women supporting me, while I had, like, you know, some weird guy, the guy who literally told me there was no heartbeat was just he couldn't even, like, look me in the eye. He was so uncomfortable. And I'm like, You're a gynecologist, like, right? What are you talking about? What is this bedside manner? It was nonsense. And so that was, like, another reason why I was, like, up against the wall weeping, because I'm like, Who is this guy and and I wished that I could have it made me so sensitive to every single detail of my especially first ultrasound the second time around, like I was so clear. I was like, I've been through a traumatic experience. I need it to be like this. I need to understand what the room's gonna look like. I need to understand who's doing the ultrasound. Like I needed every little bit of information because that first experience was so horrible. And then, you know, my midwives were lovely, but they were sort of supporting me, even though, like, I wasn't going to be a client. So it's complicated, and they helped me for a little bit, but like, at a certain point, maybe a month or two later, and I was talking to them about, like, my hormones and trying to conceive, and should I be taking Vitex? And should I be, like, what should I be doing? And why is my period so sure? And all these things, and, like, my period took like, eight weeks to come back, so I was freaked out and, like, upset and impatient, and they basically, like, stopped talking to me like it was really strange. Like, there's not really, like, a way to go about that. I think that's, I mean, I think they could have done a slightly better job, but they ended up giving me over to another woman who is a doula, but she also does, like, what do we call it? Like, trying to conceive. Oh, like, support. So she ended up being sort of our like, you know, trying to conceive, like therapist slash doula, for we ended up it took us, like five months to conceive again, and she was with us throughout, and then she became our doula, doula, like when I was pregnant. So that ended up being wonderful, but it was definitely like Rocky with medical professionals. And, you know, I mean, my pregnancy journey with my doctor was amazing. And then, of course, giving birth in a hospital is like just, you know, a myriad of highs and lows,

Emily Mason 22:37
agreed, agreed. And I think the I had midwives as well, and they were fantastic, and so full of knowledge, but the it seemed like the doctors that I continued to run into were well, this is normal. And I'm like, define normal, because normal is a curve, and I know what normal curves look like, and I can be anywhere from like the far right to the far left, so I like for me, this doesn't feel normal, right? And I am a very persistent individual, I don't know for an answer. So I just kept going to different doctors and saying, This can't be true. Like this can't be I know my body, and I ask lots of other people about their bodies. I'm I work as a postpartum doula, amazing in my free time, and I ask crazy questions to people. I'm like, so tell me about your period.

Speaker 3 23:48
Like, Yeah, crazy at all. And and people, my

Emily Mason 23:52
friend group, they'll look at me and they'll be like, Did you just ask that woman over and, like, yes. Like, she just had a baby. So now I want to know, like, yeah, or, you know, I'll meet you when I'm starting to talk to you. And I'm like, so, like, when you ovulate, and like, I have, like, what does this What's it supposed to feel like? And so I got answers from like, hundreds of people, and I kept saying, This isn't normal. Like, what I'm experiencing isn't normal. And I'm like, I ovulate. I like, I take the test. I've spent 1000s of dollars on all of these things, yeah. And you can't tell me why I ovulate, and I can't stay pregnant, and that, like, infuriating, yes. And then finding the right person that's like, hey, like, all we have to do is go remove some polyps, and you're good, wow. And I'm like, Are you like? And in those moments, I'm like, you just have to find that right doctor, yeah, right nurse, right midwife, right the right puzzle pieces. But so often people are deterred by, well, that's normal. And then they're like, fertility.

Madeleine Garner 24:58
They're like, You. Haven't been trying long enough or like you, like you haven't put like enough time hasn't gone by, and time feels like you never will have enough of it. You are on time no matter how old you are or how long you've been going through it, because it every single element, feels like it goes on for a lifetime. And so this is bringing back the memory of something similar happening to me. My period came back, but it was only two days long, and I was like, That can't be good. That can't be good. I know that if you have a short period, you know this phase isn't long enough, and then, like, a kid is not right, something must be wrong. And there's and there's no research on women's bodies, so, so there's also just these medical professionals just pulling into empty bags because there's just nothing for them in there, and no one's trying to figure it out. It's just like we're a mystery to everyone. And and I went to this doctor because I became convinced that I had the syndrome where, like, after, because I had to have a DNC after my miscarriage, because the miscarriage didn't come out on its own, which was a whole other thing. I had to go in. And they were like, we could wait another couple days to measure again. I'm like, No, I'm not waiting anymore. Like, this is this week that I had to wait between the first ultrasound and the second ultrasound when I can finally, like, have the DNC was the longest week of my life. Like, let me have the DNC and move on with my life. And like, the DNC was traumatic and but after DNC, you can have scar tissue that then can, like, cover your cervix, and there can be, like, restricted blood flow. So, like, then you're you've this short period, and then there, you're not a hard time getting pregnant, and there's and so months in, I was like, do I have this thing? And I go to this doctor, this new doctor, and he's like, I'm telling him my whole story, and I'm crying. I'm like, I've been trying. I had a miscarriage. I'm trying to conceive again, and I can't conceive. And like, I'm thinking, it might be this, can we figure it out? And he literally said to me, why do you want to be pregnant so badly? And I was like, I was like, I don't understand the question, like, also, What business is it of yours? Like, right? I This is my goal, is, like, it was just crazy. Like it was truly, it was beyond. It was, like, so beyond. And then you're sitting there and, like, then that person gives you an ultrasound, like, such an intimate thing, right? And you're like, Oh, great. Like, yeah, get out the wand. So excited for this, like, and you're, you're having to sort of disassociate from your body, and all these moments where, like, your body becomes this thing, it becomes this medical experiment, and you're peeing on things, and you're testing your temperature, and you're just a science experiment, and it totally becomes, like, your whole life. It can become just all encompassing. And eventually, I mean, I had to, like, the end of my sort of conception story is just like, I had to put all of that away, like for my mental health, like I had to stop seeing the doctors. I had to, like, stop testing everything. I put the LH strips away, I was like, I can't do this anymore, because I can't think about this every single morning first thing when I wake up. I have to, like, live my life. And then my husband, I decided to go to Miami for the weekend. And we literally, like, went to Miami and, like, either in Miami or right after Miami is when we conceived. And it was like that thing that people say where they're like, just stop trying and it'll happen. Like that did happen, but you have to get to the point where you're ready to stop trying, which is like, so it is so hard to really, truly in your heart, be like, I'm gonna pause this experience. And like, you have to have gone through hell to feel like, like, I won't survive if I keep doing it this way. And so it's not easy to get to that point. Just stop trying. You're like, Uh huh. So yeah, man, it is really like, and it's, it's funny, I think we also like in our minds maybe, I mean, I don't think about this all the time. I don't think about these doctors. I've blocked them out, you know, I've, I've tried to, you know, you don't, you don't want to think about them, but it's so important to remember that, like that did happen to you, and it's happening to other people, and how can we talk about it in a way that does spread knowledge, and like, knowledge is power, and then give the power to the people who need it in Those little rooms with all their wands and things.

Emily Mason 29:22
Those were the worst rooms. Yes, I hated going to those rooms. Well, we're going to jump into a quick break, and then we will be right back with some more questions.

All right, welcome back. So we've been talking about doctors and talking about just kind of this journey that and everybody's journey is different. Do you think women talk about miscarriage often? In or do you think it's something that is not talked about? And why do you think it's is or is not talked about?

Madeleine Garner 30:07
I think it's being talked about more. But I think, you know, I think I can feel it. Whenever I say it to someone, it puts the other person immediately on edge. And I get it because they don't know what to say to you, like they don't a lot of people don't know how to handle receiving that information. And I think what we have to actually normalize is various responses to this. So I think people need to feel free to say their experience, however, makes them comfortable. And I think with the normalized the reactions being, I'm so sorry for your loss. Do you want to tell me about it? Or like, I'm so sorry that happened to you? Like, if you want to tell me about your experience, your baby, like, anything I'm I'm here, I can listen or like, it's sort of letting the per letting the per letting the person who went through the experience decide how much they want to share, and having that openness be okay. Because I think it's this, it's this fear, I think that people don't talk about it enough, because the the fear is I'm going to make other people uncomfortable, and that's the thing I think we should change,

Emily Mason 31:19
agreed and and I think for the person receiving the information, for people that are listening to this, and potentially maybe a person receiving like, Hey, I had a miscarriage, it's okay to not have an answer. And I think that's what society I mean. My My friend groups, my mom was even, you know, like, when I'm talking to her, she's like, I don't know what to say when you say that. And I'm like, you don't have to say anything. Like, I'm not expecting you to solve the problem, right? Not expecting you to have all the answers. I just need to say it, and I need it to go somewhere in this world

Madeleine Garner 31:57
and be taken seriously. Yeah, and just,

Emily Mason 32:01
and just be able you can sit there and be with somebody without saying anything, and just be a comfort piece for that person.

Madeleine Garner 32:12
Yes, yes. I loved when my friends came over and just sort of sat with me, and and, and I loved when they asked me what it was like being pregnant, because I really wanted to talk about it, like I waited to be pregnant my whole life. I had waited 32 years to be pregnant and and I had been for like, a brief period of time, and I really wanted to talk about it, and whenever I could talk about it, and it didn't make the other person uncomfortable, and they were still excited for me to have had that experience like that was so rewarding and bonding and, like, just deep and meaningful. And so I'm always sort of searching for that whenever I sort of tell people, but now I'm sort of like, yes, well, I have a baby and, and I had a miscarriage first, and, you know, and I sort of just, I also think saying it and having it be normal, as in, like, you could just say it and it's like, I had a miscarriage, and I'm gonna still move on with what I was saying. And we don't have to linger. And you can just be like, I'm so sorry, and that's okay, and then we move on, like, that's okay too, you know, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Emily Mason 33:11
And, and I think, like, women are talking about their experiences more, and we have this conversation, you know, in in my friend groups and in the circles that I run in, and especially I learn from the generation before me. I ask questions, and that generation was like, Emily, we didn't have pregnancy tests that told you, you know, and I think information is so much more applicable or achievable at this point in time, in our society that we are finding out things sooner, and that's not a bad thing. I love finding our information as soon as possible, if I can

Madeleine Garner 33:52
find out different, yes, yeah, it's just different than how it used to be, like we just, we just know, yeah, we know so much more about our bodies, our cycles. Like my mom told me that she didn't even really still know what ovulation was, right? I'm like,

Emily Mason 34:09
have so many babies, and

Madeleine Garner 34:16
I'm telling her, like, exactly what happens day one, day two, day three. Like, this is how it works. She's looking at me blank, spare, like, absolutely no information. And it's just like, yeah, it's a miracle we are all alive at all truly. And

Emily Mason 34:28
like my mom, she's like, well, I'd have a cycle one month, and then I wouldn't have one for a couple. I'm like, What do you mean? You didn't, did you like? And she's like, Well, no, that was just the norm. And she goes, and then I never tracked. I never knew when, like, it was a surprise. Every time I got my period, I'm like, it is a science when I'm Yeah, yeah, and I don't know I was like that. So I think that also, like, gleans to, like, we're talking about it more. But do you think there's room to to continue? Bringing her awareness to her Absolutely.

Madeleine Garner 35:01
I just think, like, I know, like our number for, like, our statistic for how many people have miscarriages, like, it keeps going up, but I still think it's incorrect. Like, I'm sure it's higher, because there's just so much non reporting, there's so much still that, you know, people don't even know, or don't want to say or don't want to talk about it, and so I just think, like, Yes, I think there's always room to talk about it more again, because, like, maybe there will be research done on pregnancy and like, why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, and like, why it's happening one way or another. Like, if we don't talk about it, that research will never reach the surface like it'll never reach the right people with the right funds.

Emily Mason 35:46
Exactly, yes. So you talked about your book a little bit, but I want to give you the space to kind of tell us more about I think we know a little bit about why you wrote your book, but then the intention behind how you think it's going to help women, and how, like, what your goals are for how it's going to help women and families in society. And what feedback have you gotten from your book thus

Madeleine Garner 36:15
far? Yes, I mean, to be honest, the feedback has been, like, incredible, which is so I mean, it's just so amazing, because you go through this experience, you make something that you hope will help people. And then whenever someone says, like, it already is, like, it's not even out yet, and the people I've shared it with have read it and come back and just been like, this is already helping, and it's for people who haven't even some people have experienced pregnancy loss. Some people are dealing with loss of a different kind, because the book holistically is about how you can become friends with your own grief, how you can make space for grief in your life. It's not something that goes away and that's okay, it's something that lives alongside the joy and the everything, the anxiety, it lives alongside all of your emotions forever, and that's beautiful. It's with you always. It doesn't pay. You don't have the pang of grief every day for the rest of your life, but, but the grief you know sort of becomes integrated into your daily life. But the book itself, I mean, I, I'm a former preschool teacher, and I just literally have a lifelong lover of children's literature. So you know The Giving Tree and little blue and little yellow and the missing piece, and these books like have grown with me over my life, and so that's the those are the types of books I go to when I even as an adult, need something like I'm looking for support, understanding, empathy. I go to those books, I think they're so they're so deep, they're so they resound throughout your life, from the time you're born through the time you are very old, like it can it touches you in a different way at each stage of your life, and that's the book I wanted. I wanted a book that was like a children's book, but talking about a difficult adult topic, but with visuals that kind of allowed you to lose yourself a little bit in the story, like the visuals are not representative of human forms. There's a loop, a black line, that's a loop, and then there's a little small loop, and the big loop is the mom, and the little loop is the baby. And it becomes a sort of visual language where the line of the loop ends up becoming a timeline, or it becomes the future. A little dotted line becomes the future. Color takes on like a very specific meaning. It's very measured and slow and gentle and specific and illustrated by my incredible friend Georgia loopy, who's a data visualization designer, and she so she takes data, large data sets, any kind of data, and makes them beautiful and glanceable and understandable. And so she basically created a visual language for my book where you sort of, then you start, you just, you get you without having to be told what's happening. Like, you realize, oh, that's, that's like, the partner, oh, that's, that's what this means. Oh, that's what this means. Oh. Yellow means pregnancy. Like the yellow means hope, like, it starts to make sense as you read it, and it's sort of, it allows for this sort of other layer of understanding and of end of storytelling throughout the book. And it's a very the language is also sort of children's book, like it's sort of how you would describe, like a heart attack to a child is sort of like you'd say, this person's heart stopped working and it needs to beat in order for the person to live, and it stopped beating, and so the person isn't living anymore. Like, a very direct way that's like, very understandable. And if it's like, if you don't know what a heart attack is, it's like, it doesn't matter. This is sort of how it this is how it works. And that's the kind of language that helped me process my own experience. And I think it's like, you know, we talk to kids that way because it helps them understand and sometimes, like, we're still kids, and we need to be talked to that way, and, and so that was the book that I needed. I needed this, this gentle hug of this, like beautiful visual language, these simple, poetic words and, and, and I needed hope at the end, and, and that's sort of what, that's what it became. And I just feel so lucky that it's gonna be fully out in the world. And, you know, I'll tell people about it, and they're like, oh, this just happened to my sister. Like, I can't wait to get it. And it's sort of like, I'm so excited for it to come out. And it's also kind of sad. I'm like, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, but I am really excited for them to potentially be able to be helped by this book. And and that's sort of actually exactly what the book is about, which is this, like dual nature of our of our lives, of just like the happiness and the sadness are always being hand in hand. And yeah, I think I'm just, I'm so grateful for everyone who has given me feedback throughout the process, and for everyone who's read it so far, and I'm just so, so excited for it to just be a book in the world, it's amazing. Well,

Emily Mason 41:29
I'm excited to get my hands on it as well. This conversation has been fantastic, and we're not done yet. We're going to take a quick break, stay with us, there's more questions to explore when we get back.

Welcome back to preg pals. So as we kind of wrap up thinking about how we can support women we touched on it, but I think it's important to bring this back up again of what can what words of encouragement or actions can people do or help showcase for women Navigating through these tough experiences? What? What can society, what can the people that are listening? What can they do when they hear these, these experiences? What would you want somebody to do for you? I

Madeleine Garner 42:31
would want them to approach without fear you and you're allowed to get it wrong. You don't, you don't, you don't go in jail if you get it wrong, it's it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to ask what I want, what I need, it's okay to be uncertain. And I think if that's the space that you're entering into, then more and more people will will speak out, and we'll talk about what they've been through. And I think, I think if we can all walk around the world remembering that every single person and every single family has walked through fire to to build their beautiful families, then I think it will make all of us better at at being friends and being loved ones and being sports for each other Absolutely.

Emily Mason 43:22
And I love the fact that you said you will not go to jail if you get it wrong. We live in such a cancel society. Yes, I think we have to make that like you're talking to people and you are not always going to say the right thing, and words don't always have to be calculated. They can be what you know, like I've never

Madeleine Garner 43:48
you can try your best. You can just try your best. And like, trying your best is sometimes absolutely good enough,

Emily Mason 43:54
absolutely you and you don't have to have walked the same walk to be an emotional support for somebody else, and I think that's important for people to know moving forward. Yes,

Madeleine Garner 44:08
yes, I couldn't agree more. The more we can be ourselves, the more we can be unmasked, the closer we'll all sort of get to each other and like, that's the best outcome I think we could have absolutely

Emily Mason 44:21
so I think the burning question for most of our listeners so far are, where can they find you and where can they order your book?

Madeleine Garner 44:31
Yes. So you can find me at Maddie Dara Garner, on Instagram and on and my website, Maddie Derek runner.com and you can get the book on Amazon and on books Barnes and Noble and at the Simon and Schuster website, you can get it basically everywhere. You can pre order it now, your baby will find you, and it's it's there, it's already it's already there. And then on May 6, that will ship out to you, it is there because

Emily Mason 44:59
I. Have it in my shopping cart right now, so make sure you put it in your shopping cart, and we'll make sure to link all of those social media handles and where you can find the book in our show notes. Man, I really appreciated you coming on the show today. Thank you so much. And thank you for sharing your story, your wisdom, and thank you for writing a book that brings this journey to the pages for somebody that maybe didn't have permission in their mind to be able to express some of those emotions and feelings. Of course,

Madeleine Garner 45:41
thank you so much for having me, Emily. This was so this is amazing. It's amazing to talk to you about my experience, your experience, and thanks for letting me talk about the book.

Emily Mason 45:49
Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners. Be sure to check out new mommy media.com that's where all of our podcast episodes are housed, plus videos and more.

That wraps up our show for today. So thank you so much for listening. If you love pray deep house as much as we do, we'd love for you to check out our amazing businesses that sponsor our show every week, and don't forget to share this free resource with another new mama who might enjoy it. If you're looking for more great content, be sure to check out our other podcasts, like newbies, parent savers, the boob group and twin talks by visiting our website at New mommy media.com don't forget to follow us on Instagram at New Mommy Media for updates, giveaways and much more. Thanks for joining us on Craigie pals, your pregnancy your way.

Disclaimer 46:46
This has been a New Mommy Media production. The information and material contained in this episode are presented for educational purposes only. Statements and opinions expressed in this episode are not necessarily those of New Mommy Media and should not be considered facts while such information and materials are believed to be accurate. It is not intended to replace or substitute for professional medical advice or care and should not be used for diagnosing or treating healthcare problems or disease or prescribing any medication if you have questions or concerns regarding your physical or mental health or the health of your baby, please seek assistance from a qualified healthcare provider you.